Jonathan Van Ness Breaks Down During Heated Debate on Dax Shepard’s Podcast: ‘I Am So Tired of Having to Fight’

Jonathan Van Ness recently appeared on Dax Shepard’s Armchair Expert podcast, and the Queer Eye star wound up in a heated debate with the host. During their conversation, Van Ness — who is trans and uses they/them pronouns — and Shepard got into a tense back-and-forth about trans rights. At one point, Van Ness said they are “so tired of having to fight” for visibility and respect.

At one point, Van Ness and Shepard found themselves divided over whether or not The New York Times should be considered a news organization that leans liberal. Van Ness pointed to what they feel has been “anti-trans” content, with Shepard rebuttaling that the outer was only “challenging” and asking “questions” about trans issues, such as teenagers being prescribed puberty blockers. “This whole notion that to be critical… or to question even question it makes you an enemy,” Shepard said. “I don’t think that’s the way forward.”

Unsettled about the conversation, Van Ness replied, “I feel like I’m talking to my dad.” The LGBTQ+ activist added, “All I’m saying is what we know about misinformation and disinformation is when you have an outsized reaction to something, there’s a good chance that you’re being exposed to misinformation and disinformation… And a lot of the rhetoric around the anti-trans backlash does have a lot of misinformation and disinformation in it.” Van Ness eventually clarified, “I’m not calling you a transphobe,” then added, “You cannot be transphobic and still have thoughts that espouse trans misogyny and espouse transphobic ideologies and beliefs.”

After a lengthy debate, Van Ness lamented that their appearance on Shepard’s podcast ended up being mostly a debate over trans rights, rather than an opportunity to discuss their own podcast, Getting Curious. Shepard then acknowledged the situation and apologized, saying he “did not intend” for it to happen that way. “I didn’t want that at all,” he said. “I adore you. I think that you’re hysterical and talented and I love that you’re an activist.”

Van Ness became tearful and emotional, explaining that this topic has very personal significance to them. “I could just cry because I’m so tired of having to fight for little kids because they just want to be included,” they said. “I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women’s fairness in sports. I have to tell you, I am very tired.” 

“I’m scared of the vitriol that trans people face every day,” Van Ness added. Finally, they noted that even a “casual questioning” of trans rights can have a bigger impact than trans kids not being allowed to participate in sports. “It’s also healthcare,” they said, “it’s also gender-based violence.”